Talk:Nir Oz massacre

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

You must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Islam: Islam and Controversy Low‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Categorization : Diffuse articles from Category:Companies of Israel.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.
- Merge Nahal Rafiah (draft, heb) into Nahal as requested by Wikipedia authority

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Palestine Low‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Terrorism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

According to one report...[edit]

Text starting "According to one report..." almost always contains misinformation. It must be replaced when a proper count is made, which should be soon. Zero^talk 04:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Calling the attack "terrorism"[edit]

The international designation of the extinctionist attack as an act of "terrorism" as already occurred. The designation should at least be mentioned by the article. Icrin7 (talk) 00:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes terrorism of the most horrible type 2601:282:4000:7740:C8F7:5D6F:A6B8:49D2 (talk) 04:47, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2023[edit]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

‹ The template Edit extended-protected is being considered for merging. ›

None of this information is proven fact or evidenced. even naming it a massacre is fallacious. pleased delete. 79.169.36.223 (talk) 22:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Looks well-sourced to me (including the term massacre). Please keep in mind that Wikipedia simply reports what other sources have already said; nothing needs to be "proven fact". Tollens (talk) 23:41, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WhatsApp[edit]

With the approval of the kibbutz members, a transcript containing the messages sent by the kibbutz members in the joint WhatsApp group of the kibbutz members was published. These masseges were written on the day of the massacre.

https://yediot.webflow.io/7days/nir-oz-parliament?externalurl=true — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 08:50, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add section on massacre denial[edit]

Many people are denying that this massacre actually took place, spreading stories about friendly Hamas soldiers knocking on doors and kindly asking for bananas. This should be addressed in the article. 73.249.27.176 (talk) 03:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 June 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Nir Oz massacre be renamed and moved to Nir Oz attack.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Nir Oz massacre → Nir Oz attack – While some sources use the word "massacre" to describe the event, most other sources use the word "attack". "Massacre" carries a judgment. WP:POVNAME allows for such names only when "a significant majority of English-language source" use such a name. That is not the case here and it can be shown that "attack" is at least as common as "massacre", if not more. WP:NDESC also says "Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words". Sources that use "attack" include:

AP News [1]: "Hamas attack unfolding in the kibbutz of Nir Oz"
BBC News [2]: "Nir Oz in Israel, untouched since Hamas attack"
CBS News [3]: "scenes at Kibbutz Nir Oz following Hamas attack"
The Guardian [4]: "attack on Nir Oz kibbutz"
Christian Science Monitor: "attack on Nir Oz"
Forbes: "Kibbutz Nir Oz after
NPR [5]: "The Hamas attack", "a deadly attack by militants two months earlier, in Nir Oz, Israel"
NBC News [6]: "the Oct. 7 attack on the kibbutz"
Times of Israel [7]: "Hamas attack unfolding outside his door in the kibbutz of Nir Oz"
New York Times [8]: "an attack by Hamas militants".
France 24 [9]: "Nir Oz kibbutz, which Hamas attacked on October 7" VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, due to the nature of the event (targeting civilians directly and 'interpersonally') and the coverage, where there is sufficient RS coverage. It's important to note that two of the listed sources (AP, TOI,) use massacre in direct quotes.

Other uses (from sources in the article) include:

FortunateSons (talk) 12:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources not in article:

972
Haaretz
JNS
The Globe and Mail (paywall, definitely in title)
Israel Hayom (in title)
Jewish Chronicle
Fox news (not generally reliable)
Sydney Morning Herald
BBC use in non-specific context

FortunateSons (talk) 12:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of the above sources that I clicked through also use the word attack.

NYT: "‘A Day of Horror:’ Kibbutz Massacre Survivors Recount Hamas Attack"
Forward: "This is her first visit since the attack."
Jerusalem Post: "Irit Lahav, who survived the attack"

etc.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Forbes and Christian Science Monitor are not linked FortunateSons (talk) 12:44, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There will be sources using a wide range of descriptions, and ultimately this a matter of editor judgement. 46 civilian being deliberately targeted and killed in their homes is clearly in the massacre category IMO. Frankly, renaming the article just looks like an attempt to downplay the severity of this. Number 5 7 19:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:ASPERSION. As an admin, you should know better. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: We should not be basing our article title on whether we think it was a massacre or not. We should be avoiding POV names (MOS:TERRORIST) unless they are unavoidable due to there being a clear WP:COMMONNAME, which seems absent in this case. Usage in quotes is an indication of opinions, not of what name is appropriate to call the event – journalists cover various opinions. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:In the context of what this article describes, namely a massive number of civilians brutally MASSACRED, it is obvious that would be an appropriate name for this article. An attack can be anything, it doesn't even imply anyone was hurt. "The man was attacked by the angry mob, but got away without being harmed." Versus: "The man and his family were massacred in the safe room of their house." Attack is NOT a synonym for massacre. DaringDonna (talk) 19:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of articles with the word "attack" used to describe brutal killings of civilians: September 11 attacks, Mumbai attacks, 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel (including Holit attack) etc. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: There is no need for a Euphemism. A Massacre is "an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless." This definition describes the event exactly. The word attack is much more vague and general. SigTif (talk) 03:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Massacre" is precise, while "attack" is general. I wonder why people keep trying to change the October 7 articles from "massacre" to "attack" repeatedly... ABHammad (talk) 06:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: per NPOV and the OP's self-explanatory source analysis, which shows RS clearly using the proposed language. More generally, the topic is poorly outlined and weak on detail, but pertinent details include the presence of a security team that mounted a defense and forms part of the casualties. That there was two-way combat makes the current language descriptively less viable. Finally, the initial military attack is also poorly distinguished from the subsequent events, including reports of marauding civilians, as well as the clearing operation by the IDF. There is no visibility on the spread of the casualties across this series of developments, making it more problematic and less concrete to overtly characterise the events as anything other than the obvious: an attack. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]