Talk:Tibet
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Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region[edit]
Tibet 西藏 commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region, similarly China means PRC, the Tibet Autonomous Region page should become Tibet page, this page should become new page Tibetan Region 藏区. Toto11zi (talk) 21:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- There is another page on Tibet Autonomous Region. If you want that page to be renamed as "Tibet", you need to gather sources and file a WP:RfM on its talk page. You would also need to propose a new title for this page, perhaps Tibet region or something like that. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Page move, please add if you have more ideas.[edit]
Tibet 西藏 commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region, similarly China means PRC, the Tibet Autonomous Region page should become Tibet page, current Tibet page should become new page Tibetan Area (or Tibet Region, or Greater Tibet) 藏区. Both current titles "Tibet" and "Tibet Autonomous Region" do not follow Wikipedia's naming conventions, such as that it is not the common name of the subject. Some common links show that common meaning of Tibet is Tibet Autonomous Region:
- Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region
- Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region
- Tibet Autonomous Region is one of the autonomous regions of the People's Republic of China and is commonly abbreviated as Xizang (Tibet).
- The Tibetan Area (or Tibetan Region) is a broader geographical concept
- Tibet is a part of the People's Republic of China. It is an autonomous region of the People's Republic of China.
- The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereafter referred to as "Tibet") as part of the People's Republic of China.
- Tibet, historic region and autonomous region of China that is often called “the roof of the world.”
Toto11zi (talk) 02:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 29 May 2024[edit]
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– Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region, more info and common links can be found in Talk page of Tibet, also Talk page of Tibet Autonomous Region, current Tibet page can be moved to Greater Tibet Toto11zi (talk) 14:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. None of the sources above are supportive of the claim. Nobody contests that "Tibet Autonomous Region" is often shortened to "Tibet", and of course maps need to show the current boundaries. You need to show via sources that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR rather than the broader cultural grouping and historical Tibet. But I don't think that's true; English language media routinely refers to Tibetans as Tibetans wherever they are as well as the general history of the region. For comparison, see Ireland, a broad-concept article on Ireland-across-history; this is the equivalent for Tibet, which I think is correct. I could maybe see an argument for moving Tibet (disambiguation) to Tibet, something like Macedonia, a disambiguation page that does not redirect to North Macedonia nor the Macedonia region of Greece nor the historical kingdom; but think that the status quo is fine. Besides, there's a link directly in the hatnote to the TAR. SnowFire (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- The name Tibet is similar to the name China: China commonly means PRC, and that's why name China was moved from Greater China to PRC. Wikipedia:Article_titles states that commonly used name should be used as title of page, common examples are shown above: Google map, Bing map, travel agency of Tibet, Dalai Lama's statement, U.S. policy toward Tibet, and Britannica, all these common examples show that Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region in general, and boundary is defined. Again, I'm not proving "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, but showing Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region. Island Ireland is not a good example, since it's boundary is defined and does not change with history in general. Macedonia is also not a good example, since name is used for multiple places. Are you saying page Tibet can only be moved to TAR only if "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, do I understand right? Is this Wikipedia's naming conventions? ~~~ Toto11zi (talk) 04:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME is irrelevant to the move you propose, as both topics have a common name of "Tibet". A move would require a case that identified a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (or lack of). CMD (talk) 04:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region, this suggests primary topic of Tibet is Tibet Autonomous Region, do I understand right? Toto11zi (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Possibly depending on what you mean, we usually distinguish the two terminologies to reduce confusion. SnowFire has explained what is needed. CMD (talk) 04:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- As stated, this is similar to the PRC vs. Greater China case, primary topic of China is PRC, not Greater China. Similarly primary topic of Tibet is TAR. If I understand right, SnowFire suggests Tibet can be moved to TAR only if "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, this suggests there should be only one meaning for the term Tibet. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC suggests there're multiple meanings, and we pick the primary meaning. Am I correct? Toto11zi (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You might be reading PRIMARYTOPIC right, but I'm unsure as you don't seem to understand what SnowFire said. SnowFire effectively said you would have to show that the TAR is the primary topic, and that they do not believe you have done so. CMD (talk) 05:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, he said "You need to show via sources that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR rather than the broader cultural grouping and historical Tibet.", this means one meaning for Tibet. I responded " I'm not proving Tibet unadorned means specifically just the TAR, but showing Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region.". This means Tibet has multiple meanings, and Tibet Autonomous Region is the most common meaning, the primary topic. Toto11zi (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You do need to show that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR in most cases order to demonstrate it is the primary topic. CMD (talk) 05:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think SnowFire clearly wants "sources that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR rather than the broader cultural grouping and historical Tibet.", agree? To be fair, I think same criteria can be applied for "Greater Tibet", agree? Toto11zi (talk) 06:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're asking me to agree to, but any assertion of a primary topic would have to provide evidence of what a word means. CMD (talk) 07:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Instead of guessing SnowFire's statement, probably we need clarification from SnowFire. I've already provided various sources (maps, government policies, encyclopedia, travel agency) which indicate term Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region, not Greater Tibet. This discussion is same as China: PRC vs. Greater China. Boundary of China has changed in different periods, and the current boundary of China is boundary of the PRC, similarly boundary of Tibet has changed in different periods, the current boundary of Tibet is the TAR. Toto11zi (talk) 13:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're asking me to agree to, but any assertion of a primary topic would have to provide evidence of what a word means. CMD (talk) 07:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think SnowFire clearly wants "sources that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR rather than the broader cultural grouping and historical Tibet.", agree? To be fair, I think same criteria can be applied for "Greater Tibet", agree? Toto11zi (talk) 06:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You do need to show that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR in most cases order to demonstrate it is the primary topic. CMD (talk) 05:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, he said "You need to show via sources that "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR rather than the broader cultural grouping and historical Tibet.", this means one meaning for Tibet. I responded " I'm not proving Tibet unadorned means specifically just the TAR, but showing Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region.". This means Tibet has multiple meanings, and Tibet Autonomous Region is the most common meaning, the primary topic. Toto11zi (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You might be reading PRIMARYTOPIC right, but I'm unsure as you don't seem to understand what SnowFire said. SnowFire effectively said you would have to show that the TAR is the primary topic, and that they do not believe you have done so. CMD (talk) 05:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- As stated, this is similar to the PRC vs. Greater China case, primary topic of China is PRC, not Greater China. Similarly primary topic of Tibet is TAR. If I understand right, SnowFire suggests Tibet can be moved to TAR only if "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, this suggests there should be only one meaning for the term Tibet. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC suggests there're multiple meanings, and we pick the primary meaning. Am I correct? Toto11zi (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Possibly depending on what you mean, we usually distinguish the two terminologies to reduce confusion. SnowFire has explained what is needed. CMD (talk) 04:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region, this suggests primary topic of Tibet is Tibet Autonomous Region, do I understand right? Toto11zi (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME is irrelevant to the move you propose, as both topics have a common name of "Tibet". A move would require a case that identified a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (or lack of). CMD (talk) 04:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- (de-indent) @Toto11zi: CMD is correct. You've basically made the case that "Tibet Autonomous Region" is also called "Tibet", and should be on the Tibet (disambiguation) page and maybe the hatnote. Except that wasn't contested or controversial - it was already there, and a link is already in the hatnote. You need to prove a stronger claim for the move you're proposing, that of primary topic. Put things another way, suppose there's a situation with three articles, "Foo" (a song), Foo's Ultimate Super Album, and Fred's Official Office. Your links are fine for showing whether cases like the album or the office are abbreviated to "Foo" and deserve to be on the disambiguation page at all. But doing a primary topic grab requires a broader examination of the literature - is one meaning the most common one, ideally by >50%? If not, is it an "original" core meaning the others branch off of? To determine this, you need to do things like search for just the term unadorned ("Tibet" in this case) and see what meaning is intended, how often. For example, searching for "Tibet site:nytimes.com" has https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/travel/tibetan-culture.html as the first hit, which is very explicitly talking about Tibet-overall and directly goes over the shifting boundaries. Even if you could argue that "Tibet" meaning just the TAR has higher hits, there's also the issue above where Wikipedia usually prefers "core" / "overall" / "origin" articles to sit at the base name. SnowFire (talk) 13:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm saying term Tibet means primarily Tibet Autonomous Region, and Tibet page should be moved to TAR, similar analogy is China, China means PRC, and China was moved to PRC. Primary topic of Tibet is also TAR. Let's evaluate the two major aspects of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:
- 1) with respect to usage if it is highly likely: those common (maps, government policies, encyclopedia, travel agency) sources I provided suggest Tibet is highly likely means Tibet Autonomous Region, not other topics.
- 2) long-term significance (greater enduring notability and educational value): boundary of Tibet (TAR) is defined, governance of Tibet is defined, if people travel to Tibet, we know immediately where. If you travel to Garze, we know exactly Garze is in Sichuan, not Tibet. Moving Tibet page to (TAR) definitely has long-term significance. That's already done for zh.wikipedia.org the the same terms 西藏 and 西藏自治区.
- Chinese term for Tibet is 西藏, this term 西藏 was first used in 1663 AD, it's commonly used for the TAR 西藏自治区. Chinese term for Tibetan region (or Tibetan area, or Great Tibet) is 藏区, obviously, boundary is not defined for this, area and population are not defined for this. Toto11zi (talk) 14:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's one common example, this recent (5/30/2024) piece news talks about China:
- Mapped: Chinese Provinces with Cities Over 1 Milion People
- https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-chinese-provinces-with-cities-over-1-million-people/
- Both the map and description suggest Tibet means TAR. As stated, boundary of Tibet has changed in different periods, when the English term Tibet was created in the Qing Dynasty in 1774, the size is similar to current TAR. Obviously, Qinghai was created in 1724, it was not in Tibet. Toto11zi (talk) 16:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello? No more comments? the term "Tibet" does not mean "historical region of Tibet", it means Tibet, the size if current Tibet (TAR) is similar to that Tibet in the Qing Dynasty of China. Toto11zi (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I just don't find your sources compelling. My example is from The New York Times, a major source of "serious" English-language media. Your source is visualcapitalist.com , which is just some website. I tried searching "Tibet site:bbc.com" and got https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-16689779 back, which also talks about Tibet overall rather than only the TAR. I mentioned it before, but I will again suggest the example of Ireland, where the "base" title has an overview of Ireland overall throughout history, not the topic of the modern polity Republic of Ireland (uncontroversially also called "Ireland"). I think that something similar is correct here. SnowFire (talk) 16:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- The name Tibet is similar to the name China: China commonly means PRC, and that's why name China was moved from Greater China to PRC. Wikipedia:Article_titles states that commonly used name should be used as title of page, common examples are shown above: Google map, Bing map, travel agency of Tibet, Dalai Lama's statement, U.S. policy toward Tibet, and Britannica, all these common examples show that Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region in general, and boundary is defined. Again, I'm not proving "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, but showing Tibet commonly means Tibet Autonomous Region. Island Ireland is not a good example, since it's boundary is defined and does not change with history in general. Macedonia is also not a good example, since name is used for multiple places. Are you saying page Tibet can only be moved to TAR only if "Tibet" unadorned means specifically just the TAR, do I understand right? Is this Wikipedia's naming conventions? ~~~ Toto11zi (talk) 04:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- oppose per snowfire—blindlynx 00:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
SupportOpposeper WP:COMMONNAME. 48JCLTALK 01:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)- Tibet means Tibet Autonomous Region, otherwise, Tibet in which year in history are you referring? Toto11zi (talk) 05:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The user has only proven that Tibet is also used for the TAR, not that it is used more than the region. Sources like Google and Bing Maps reflect the boundaries drawn up by China like they do so for Texas and other places, and sources in a geopolitical context (such as the US government) are more likely to refer to the TAR rather than the historical region. 115.188.127.196 (talk) 22:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Can you explain what is historical region? Boundary of Tibet, or any administrative region of China, even China itself changed in different periods. Is this true for the city, or country you live? Toto11zi (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello? The term "Tibet" does not mean "historical region of Tibet", it means Tibet, the size of current Tibet (TAR) is similar to that Tibet in the Qing Dynasty of China. Toto11zi (talk) 05:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, Tibet usually refers to the wider cultural region. That seems to be similar to the case of Brittany pointing to the historical region and not to Brittany (administrative region). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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